And yet two years after apartheid ended the vast majority of blacks said their lives had gotten worse not better because racists that could run an economy were replaced with racists that couldn't. All racists are equal but some racists are more equalthan others.
It is unreasonable to expect a people that have been colonized for a century or more, to be able to self-rule again straight off the bat. Not only their lands were colonized, more damaging was that their minds were colonized too. Hence, self-hating behavior.
This decolonization process will take time as it has never been done before on this scale.
Add to that IMF debt and US bullying behind the scene, and you have yourself cornered against a wall whilst learning how to walk again.
Why do you think Russia and China are ahead of the game? They were never colonized in their entirety.
Get real. Look at the faces of black people walking around Johannesburg in the 50's and 60's. Are those people that "hate themselves"? They would hate to see what had happend to the streets they walked down now. My brother worked at a Scottish university in the period just after apartheid and they had links with SA universities and he visited many times and had numerous converstations with black people there who had been staunch supporters of the ANC but were already horrified at what they saw happening under Mandela. How could they see this almost 30 years ago and you still can't see it? I agree that the IMF and US bullying is a large part of it but the utter incompetence of the ANC people is a huge chunk of it. On one of his first visits there my brother was in line to book his bag in to come back to the UK and one of the white guys he had been dealing with was flying to the UK with him and he said that you could see here and now that SA was screwed and my brother said what do you mean. The guy pointed to the business class queue and there wasn't a white person in it just black guys in very smartsuits and then he said now look at the people in the cattle class queue with us most of whom were white and he knew a few of them were business men from having travelled with them to Europe before on numerous occasions. He said white people want to save money for their companies but for these ANC guys over there, all black "businessmen" then and now are linked to the ANC, their company position is simply a way to show off and spend money. These guys were going to Europe to sell SA down the river to the IMF and the EU.
Your phrase "utter incompetence of the ANC" is key here. Colonization designed the incompetence of locals, so that the colonizers could stay in control.
Why train and educate the indiginous to standard, when there's a threat they may want to use their skills to undermine colonial rule?
Corruption is absolutely a problem. But not limited to SA alone, or continental Africa alone.
Name me one nation on earth that doesn't have corrupt businessmen or politicians?
Name me any nation on earth that didn't have its own power struggles and corruption issues.
But I fail to understand your point about black people in business class queues and white people in economy class queues. This is wrong because it only should be the other way?
Why did you refer to it as cattle class? Everyone travels according to their economic means. You seem to imply that black people having more money than whites is a problem somehow, why?
Re 50s and 60s and going back in time: people in Iraq where relatively safe under Saddam, as he enforced stability with brute force, much like SA had relative peace and stability under white rule. Enforced by the gun.
Saddam gone, power struggles, corruption. Sound familiar?
If you can point any blame on Mandela, it's that he wasn't a strongman politician who used force to stabilize his nation like Kagame did for Rwanda. Mandela, wrongly believed in western-style democracy etc, which as it stands is failing in the west too.
We are 30 years on now. It wasn't my point it was the SA guy's point that while the white people wanted their companies to prosper by flying in the exact same plane more cheaply the ANC guys in the other queue were simply plundering the stored wealth that had been built up by all South Africans. Cattle class is a common term, ordinary people use it all the time. People like peace and stability however it is provided hence they mostly liked war criminals and people committing crimes against humanity like Eisenhower, Churchill, Roosevelt, Tojo, Mao, Blair, Obama, Bush, Cheney, Trump, Clinton, Saddam, Amin, Gadaffi etc etc etc . Mandela was a terrorist, he was arrested trying to plant a bomb in the black part of a bus station because the white part was so well protected. That is who you are making excuses for. The problem is the guys with the guns rule in SA as they always did but at least the previous guys provided working hospitals and electric systems etc. Mandela believed in democracy? Yes one in which he was guaranteed to get 80% of the votes, ..... I'm sure at least in that you are correct. Did you never entertain the thought that while what we had 50 years ago was far from perfect it may have been as close to perfection as most people were ever going to get and Mandela and other terrorists such as those sitting in DC, London, Tel Aviv etc etc etc took that from us and are still keeping us from getting to anything even 80% as good as what was trashed?
30 years isn't a long time, depending on how you look at it.
Look at the first 3 decades of the PRC. A lot went wrong, unfortunately. And that happened with a nation that has a milennia-long recorded history, and survived multiple attempts of being colonized by foreign powers, which means that it was mentally better placed and experienced to create order out of chaos. And even then it took time, long or short depending on how you want to view it.
Your terrorist can be my freedom fighter. And in the struggle for freedom, there are those who abandon morals and value for what they believe will result in victory. Is this wrong? Yes, I don't believe that the end justifies the means everytime.
Mandela seems to have reformed in jail I believe. It takes a real man to admit his mistakes, abandon his old ways and turn around. Never mind to do that in public.
If God forgives those who genuinely repent, should we not follow His example?
Anyway, the whole point of me commenting in the first place is because I think that there are a myriad of reasons of why SA is the way it is. I don't approve of the sitiation as it is. I'm not excusing their leadership for their collective corruption and incompetence. But I cannot condemn SA and its beautiful people for this given their history.
One day SA and other once humiliated and downtrodden nations will stand up, taking their rightful place as equals in this world.
This process can be accelerated when NATO falls apart, when western peoples reform themselves and reject the exceptionalism they are being taught in schools, and when they accept themselves as ordinary people living in modest, normal countries that don't need to project violence beyond their borders all the time.
Well, Latin America is still blaming Spanish colonization for all their woes, even though last country to gain independence from Spain was Cuba in 1898...30 years is nothing XD
And yet there are virtually no purely indigenous people left in South America as the Spanish and Portuguese had children with the locals so most of them are criticising their own ancestors. It is like the 20 year old idiot that wants to build a time machine to go back and kill Hitler when he was a baby. If Hitler hadn't have done what he did the 20 year old wouldn't be here to complain about it as the changes Hitler wrought around the planet with people moving about all over the place were so huge.
Lol! Yeah, during the rule of those "racist scum" South Africa was a virtual paradise, and blacks were streaming INTO the country by the many thousands every year. Just like now they stream into "racist" Western nations, for some mysterious reason. It's amazing how these crackpot notions of colonialism still persist among the ancient Marxists.
Of course colonialism happened. And on balance, it was vastly beneficial to the colonized nations. Even the most famous of "bad bad colonialism!" stories, that of King Leopold, is hugely exaggerated mythology.
I won't object at all to that. Racism is the perfectly natural response to understanding human differences. I prefer my race. That's why we have separate nations, or at least used to.
White rule by murderous racist scum for decades can do that to a country. The white ruling class detonated a hand grenade before stepping down.
And yet two years after apartheid ended the vast majority of blacks said their lives had gotten worse not better because racists that could run an economy were replaced with racists that couldn't. All racists are equal but some racists are more equalthan others.
It is unreasonable to expect a people that have been colonized for a century or more, to be able to self-rule again straight off the bat. Not only their lands were colonized, more damaging was that their minds were colonized too. Hence, self-hating behavior.
This decolonization process will take time as it has never been done before on this scale.
Add to that IMF debt and US bullying behind the scene, and you have yourself cornered against a wall whilst learning how to walk again.
Why do you think Russia and China are ahead of the game? They were never colonized in their entirety.
Get real. Look at the faces of black people walking around Johannesburg in the 50's and 60's. Are those people that "hate themselves"? They would hate to see what had happend to the streets they walked down now. My brother worked at a Scottish university in the period just after apartheid and they had links with SA universities and he visited many times and had numerous converstations with black people there who had been staunch supporters of the ANC but were already horrified at what they saw happening under Mandela. How could they see this almost 30 years ago and you still can't see it? I agree that the IMF and US bullying is a large part of it but the utter incompetence of the ANC people is a huge chunk of it. On one of his first visits there my brother was in line to book his bag in to come back to the UK and one of the white guys he had been dealing with was flying to the UK with him and he said that you could see here and now that SA was screwed and my brother said what do you mean. The guy pointed to the business class queue and there wasn't a white person in it just black guys in very smartsuits and then he said now look at the people in the cattle class queue with us most of whom were white and he knew a few of them were business men from having travelled with them to Europe before on numerous occasions. He said white people want to save money for their companies but for these ANC guys over there, all black "businessmen" then and now are linked to the ANC, their company position is simply a way to show off and spend money. These guys were going to Europe to sell SA down the river to the IMF and the EU.
Your phrase "utter incompetence of the ANC" is key here. Colonization designed the incompetence of locals, so that the colonizers could stay in control.
Why train and educate the indiginous to standard, when there's a threat they may want to use their skills to undermine colonial rule?
Corruption is absolutely a problem. But not limited to SA alone, or continental Africa alone.
Name me one nation on earth that doesn't have corrupt businessmen or politicians?
Name me any nation on earth that didn't have its own power struggles and corruption issues.
But I fail to understand your point about black people in business class queues and white people in economy class queues. This is wrong because it only should be the other way?
Why did you refer to it as cattle class? Everyone travels according to their economic means. You seem to imply that black people having more money than whites is a problem somehow, why?
Re 50s and 60s and going back in time: people in Iraq where relatively safe under Saddam, as he enforced stability with brute force, much like SA had relative peace and stability under white rule. Enforced by the gun.
Saddam gone, power struggles, corruption. Sound familiar?
If you can point any blame on Mandela, it's that he wasn't a strongman politician who used force to stabilize his nation like Kagame did for Rwanda. Mandela, wrongly believed in western-style democracy etc, which as it stands is failing in the west too.
We are 30 years on now. It wasn't my point it was the SA guy's point that while the white people wanted their companies to prosper by flying in the exact same plane more cheaply the ANC guys in the other queue were simply plundering the stored wealth that had been built up by all South Africans. Cattle class is a common term, ordinary people use it all the time. People like peace and stability however it is provided hence they mostly liked war criminals and people committing crimes against humanity like Eisenhower, Churchill, Roosevelt, Tojo, Mao, Blair, Obama, Bush, Cheney, Trump, Clinton, Saddam, Amin, Gadaffi etc etc etc . Mandela was a terrorist, he was arrested trying to plant a bomb in the black part of a bus station because the white part was so well protected. That is who you are making excuses for. The problem is the guys with the guns rule in SA as they always did but at least the previous guys provided working hospitals and electric systems etc. Mandela believed in democracy? Yes one in which he was guaranteed to get 80% of the votes, ..... I'm sure at least in that you are correct. Did you never entertain the thought that while what we had 50 years ago was far from perfect it may have been as close to perfection as most people were ever going to get and Mandela and other terrorists such as those sitting in DC, London, Tel Aviv etc etc etc took that from us and are still keeping us from getting to anything even 80% as good as what was trashed?
30 years isn't a long time, depending on how you look at it.
Look at the first 3 decades of the PRC. A lot went wrong, unfortunately. And that happened with a nation that has a milennia-long recorded history, and survived multiple attempts of being colonized by foreign powers, which means that it was mentally better placed and experienced to create order out of chaos. And even then it took time, long or short depending on how you want to view it.
Your terrorist can be my freedom fighter. And in the struggle for freedom, there are those who abandon morals and value for what they believe will result in victory. Is this wrong? Yes, I don't believe that the end justifies the means everytime.
Mandela seems to have reformed in jail I believe. It takes a real man to admit his mistakes, abandon his old ways and turn around. Never mind to do that in public.
If God forgives those who genuinely repent, should we not follow His example?
Anyway, the whole point of me commenting in the first place is because I think that there are a myriad of reasons of why SA is the way it is. I don't approve of the sitiation as it is. I'm not excusing their leadership for their collective corruption and incompetence. But I cannot condemn SA and its beautiful people for this given their history.
One day SA and other once humiliated and downtrodden nations will stand up, taking their rightful place as equals in this world.
This process can be accelerated when NATO falls apart, when western peoples reform themselves and reject the exceptionalism they are being taught in schools, and when they accept themselves as ordinary people living in modest, normal countries that don't need to project violence beyond their borders all the time.
Well, Latin America is still blaming Spanish colonization for all their woes, even though last country to gain independence from Spain was Cuba in 1898...30 years is nothing XD
And yet there are virtually no purely indigenous people left in South America as the Spanish and Portuguese had children with the locals so most of them are criticising their own ancestors. It is like the 20 year old idiot that wants to build a time machine to go back and kill Hitler when he was a baby. If Hitler hadn't have done what he did the 20 year old wouldn't be here to complain about it as the changes Hitler wrought around the planet with people moving about all over the place were so huge.
Not all their woes are blamed on the Spanish. The US isn't blame free or particularly popular in LatAm countries, and for good reason.
Lol! Yeah, during the rule of those "racist scum" South Africa was a virtual paradise, and blacks were streaming INTO the country by the many thousands every year. Just like now they stream into "racist" Western nations, for some mysterious reason. It's amazing how these crackpot notions of colonialism still persist among the ancient Marxists.
So colonialism never happened?
Of course colonialism happened. And on balance, it was vastly beneficial to the colonized nations. Even the most famous of "bad bad colonialism!" stories, that of King Leopold, is hugely exaggerated mythology.
You are a racist then.
I know you will spaz out and object to being called that and play victim to, but you are.
There is a reason why countries that were not colonized did better than the ones that were.
I won't object at all to that. Racism is the perfectly natural response to understanding human differences. I prefer my race. That's why we have separate nations, or at least used to.